Andrew Warner

Having known Todd since before OLE what you just wrote about him is utter bullshit - you may not like the cause he is working for - but you step way over the line attacking him personally like this. Have you even met him or talked to him ? My estimation of you just went down to zero. What-a-jerk.

Andrew, I have a firm and intense dislike of the Learn and Earn because I do not want casinos in Ohio.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however for me, through personal emails with Todd (I was unable to attend the MTB session with him but have exchanged other communications with him in comments and via email), I've come to be critical of the system that allows for communications folks such as Todd, who, I have to say, is excellent at what he does, even if I don't like what he does, to end up being highly paid employees of those who want the issue on the ballot and the money eventually in their pockets.

I've raised my hackles over this issue before, I've been told (by none other than "staff") that this is just the way it is re: getting issues on the ballots takes mega-bucks, and I've also learned that there are people who, as a fulltime job, get other people to sign petitions, for whatever the issue might be.

Now, I'm not going to go on a high horse and say what whores those folks are, even if I might think that. I don't know everyone's situation and frankly, since it's not mine, that's just too judgemental - it's not my place to say that.

I also happen to know a bit of other information about Todd, though we've never met, that cause me to give him the benefit of the doubt and err on the side of him giving his all, no matter who he represents. Yes, I'm choosing to look at it this way, much the same way I can't imagine how people can be public defenders and get rapists, murderers and other malcontents off - think about the PDs who get people off of their subsequent DUIs and then that offender eventually kills someone.

So I guess I'd like to ask whether you might think even more than you have already about the entire system that allows businesses and industries with megamillions to employ talented folks like Todd to do what must get done. Yes, of course, maybe, Todd could say no - I'm not talking about that, even though maybe that's what you want to focus on.

Rather, I want to focus on how it's an industry. I mean, seriously - from a journalistic perspective? I think it would FASCINATING to see a lengthy nonnarrative piece that really explores what issues make it to the ballot and how many don't, and how often that's because of deep pockets. Should we even be okay with allowing companies to exist whose sole income comes from making sure people go out and convince others to sign petitions, for whatever, simply because it pays a working wage? What about those folks - those petition-signing companies?

Ok - just wanted to throw my two cents in - because I do feel that you've gone pretty hard on Todd. I think there are other angles here to work, at least until you have specific evidence to impugn Todd personally.

Thanks.

I apologize if it seems like I was personally attacking Todd Hoffman, I can understand how it might seem this way.

I saw his comment, the one posted in the entry, and I viewed it as an omission of the truth, or a lie (how I view much of Learn and Earn's campaign).

I didn't, and I still don't, see my attack on him as personal. He is, as an on-line communications director, being paid to shift the opinions of bloggers towards his campaign.

I did, perhaps unfairly, use him as an example of a larger issue. But he did make the comments that are obviously less than true.

I didn't attack the way he looks, what he does in his spare time, who he goes out with, how he treats his children, or anything else that I would consider "personal." I merely criticized the way he chooses to do business in his professional capacity. More specifically, his comment that I posted and the entire angle the on-line presence the Learn and Earn campaign has taken.

And please, "staff," spare me your "I don't condone personal attacks routine." You are the guy who posted the video of a Republican college intern to make fun of the way he talks in hopes that others would laugh at him too. That is a baseless personal attack. I am merely calling a lie a lie.

And Jill, yes I do think the system needs looking at and I do understand people need to make money. But if they are willing to spin the truth for money, they should know that discussion is likely to ensue. I do however think I stayed within the realm of fair game, perhaps I should have not used the word "lackey" or something of that nature, but I meant no personal harm towards Mr. Hoffman and I apologize if it seemed that I did.

On the Clark Street Blog I did say "You are a pathetic liar," but I meant it in the sense that he is not good at lying, not that he is a pathetic person that is also a liar. I deleted the comment to remove any potential confusion.

I appreciate your subsequent comments, Andrew, as well as your argument that when someone chooses to spin the truth for money, it opens them to attack - at least attack on choosing to get involved. But, that's also a philosophical and maybe even psychological question, unless you just boil it down to money - making it and spending it.

In any case, a lot of levels from which to view the effort. No reason not to explore them all. And, I might add? I've yet to find a level from which Ohio Learn and Earn convinces me to vote in favor of casinos, and isn't that the bottom line?

Jill,

Just as President Bush and and the GOP is aware they can't win votes by saying "we're going to vote in favor of big business every time while ignoring the needs of you and the rest of the world," Learn and Earn can't just come out and say "we''re bringing casinos into Ohio." Campaigns are finding ways to bury the real issues and package them in simple ways, as if to trick the voters.

They use code words and obscure points (gay marriage for Republicans or the scholarship fund in OLE's case) to advance their bigger agenda.

No Jill, they probably aren't going to trick someone as intelligent as you to vote for casinos because they tell you "a lot of good will come of this," or because their pictures of children look happy and they remind you of your children. But to the millions they will talk to in the streets who they only tell "scholarship fund," who knows who they will trick?

I've been approached twice by OLE petioners and each time they sell the same line "would you like to sign a petition to increase school funding in ohio". When I ask how? they usually say "scholarships" They do not mention gambling. The fact that so many people have had similiar encounters makes me feel they have been instructed to sell the "learn" and don't tell them how we want to "earn".

Has anyone been approached by one of these petitioners that came out and said slot machines or gambling without being directly asked? Has anyone reported that? (except staff who is obviously biased). I am just wondering since so many reports of petioners miseading the public seems suspect to me, too.

Well, I confess, the image of me as an ostrich with her head in the sand just crossed my mind and I'm not proud of it. But I'm not exactly sure what to do about what I/we head about this situation.

Currently, it's not illegal for those seeking signatures to do what they're doing the way they're doing it, is it? I don't know the law in this area at all, so that's a serious question - besides the fact that it seems unethical, is it actually illegal (that's not enough for me do condemn it, but I'd still like to know).

Whether or not it's illegal, it's up to us to change the system of how something gets on a ballot if we don't want deep pocketed supporters of issues to be the ones changing our constitution (although the cynic in me says, when isn't it that way; just swat her away).

Yes, we call attention to it. But don't you feel that they'll just change their tactics?

Hmm, I don't know. Maybe there is a chance to shut something down for good and for real if enough people say enough about what's happening. Does anyone know what's worked in the past to accomplish that?

Have the MSM reported much on the methods being reported via anecdotes? I don't recall.

I've written a few letters to inquire, but no one's given me any answer.

I think I will call the ethics commission this week and see if it is a violation of any law.

The MSM hasn't reported it, this would be too useful for their pages. And yes, of course we need to change a big money system, but at the same time we should have ethical standards that regulate the actions of petition gatherers (paid or voluntary).

The more petition campaigns that base their pitch on lies, the harder it is for legitimate efforts to get the signatures of everyday citizens. That is a very dangerous thing for democracy. That is, among other reasons, the main problem with OLE and their tactics.

Let's also not forget the even bigger picture still: making a change to our state's constitution versus having the issue go through and then abide by what the legislature decides. I don't know a lot about this aspect, but I understand that some people feel the ballot petition constitution change nexus is too close and overused.

here in Akron I too have been approached by Ohio Earn and Learn to sign a petition so Ohio can establish scholarship money for Ohio kids. I never here about them wanting slot amchines, or how money can help infastructure. Just how it will help kids. Now the same group is trying to get signatures to raise the minimum wage. And none of the solicitors could show me a copy of that proposed amendment!

Several weeks ago I was enticed by an ad in Craig's list to work for progressive jobs in ohio and also learn and earn.

I confess my ignorance. I jumped right in, I was lured by a workers compensation bill that was before ohio congress, essentially redesigning several important steps, the attempt was to disallow congress from voting on it by putting it to a public vote in the next election, hence the petition drive. Also the minimum wage issue,similiar situation, putting it to a vote by the people. The big issue was this learn and earn.

I was told upon making contact with the office, to come to a location I shall not disclose(not like its a big secret, but I wish to not). Upon arriving I found its nature, just what has been addressed previously. A rented office space with dozens of eager participants to make some money for collecting signatures. Innocent in the nature of the petitioners, in this time of economic employment crisis who wouldnt want 10/hour (what I was to be paid) for merely asking for signatures on these three issues.

After my interview I left eager to participate in the first two petition drives. But, I was leary of the learn and earn because of its seeming lack of disclosure of the bill. Let's face it most Ohi'ans are against legalized gambling, we seem to hold a stigma to it for whatever reason. I personally dont have a problem with it as long as it's intent is honest.

I went home and immediately began my research on this initiative and what I found was interesting. Andrew you are right, to see the front page one would think its a great drive, who doesnt want some money for college. They do go about it truthfully but you have to search to find it. It plays upon several problems I see in our culture (of which is a whole other conversation). It's right there at the bottom of the screen that you have to scroll down to see. A little link right to the language of the bill.

One must be able to interpret legaleze or be very patient. I had the benefit of a few lawyer's interpretations.

-It is set up to use already established locations as site's for these slot machine parlors.
- It state's that of the net of the profit's a percentage shall be set aside for this fund.
-The scholarships shall be made accesible to those qualified by meeting upper percentile graduation rates and partaking in curriculum designated by the state.
-there shall be a board of 3 to oversee this fund.
-Once established the individual counties may put to vote to incorporate more types of gambling.

Well I have a problem with this language: the net is after expense's what's to say that the books are altered to adjust the net to disallow a substantial sum to be allocated to this account. The locations are set so as to disallow it would appear fair competition in these establishments. Who will appoint this commission of three. Also to allow individual counties once they have been established to vote on growing what type of gambling may be incorporated.

The income would benefit the counties in which are established but beuracracies always have a way of appropriating the money in an odd ball fashion, may I remind you of the lottery commission and what has it done to improve this states education system when we have to continue to vote on budget shortfalls by tax issues.

The petition drive is an exercise of our constitutional rights. There is nothing seemingly wrong in doing so. What I find wrong is the nature of this drive, shrouded in almost secrecy.

Oh yeah, my first time out fortunately for a clerical error I wasnt able to circulate learn and earn. The next day I stated that I did not want to circulate the learn and earn petition but was enthusiastic about the latter two. I was disallowed and hence terminated. I then found progressive jobs for ohio with the same three petitions, I immediately stated I did not want to circulate learn and earn. Through the initial interview I had to remind the interviewers I would not do so. I was mocked in a sense(of which is not important). This group I feel was better suited, but after going on a disorganized petition drive, I lost the will to continue. I then found that my paycheck is being released from learn and earn llc.

Interesting, just some info for you.